Curse

Bryant Again · Jul 15, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

Now you have to explain me your idea of something that "damages old players"...

Removing the need to learn how to play it, and instead being able to grind a title to it's max rank and beating it.

This doesn't damage "old players", it damages the game.

Avarre · Jul 15, 2008, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

A.net created PvE skills, they're nice because they add variety, if they remove we just have less variety.

Creating skills that are better than the rest do not add options, rather, they remove options. With buffed skills, there is far less variety in builds because players will focus on the ones that are, or seen to be, the most effective. Hence why LB gaze effectively dropped the skillbar size to 7 because everyone used it.

It is important game design to ensure options are equally viable, to allow a larger pool of effective setups. This is by no means an easy task in a game so complicated, but it is ANet's own fault for scratching for profit by introducing new content continually without regard for the impact on balance.

Quote:

Now you have to explain me your idea of something that "damages old players"

It's in the post I quoted and the post you quoted. I'm making a general example rather than a specific point, so no detailed explanation is necessary. Of course, if you really want a long explanation about how degrading the game damages old players, I'd direct you to my rather publicly displayed viewpoints.

R.Shayne · Jul 15, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Skills that kill mobs in one hit, skills that give players a million K in a second, skills that give a billion health a second - *all* of those things are excused with the "it doesn't affect me" argument.

"Don't like it, don't use it" isn't a valid argument here.

Some valid points in you argument and thanks for making them.

What if ANET implemented a new difficulty level that forced the player to only using PvP skills and offered a greater reward? Thus not only is Usran Blessing removed but it also forces the player to use the PvP version of sills, example they would use the pvp version of shadow form. Could it help with the transition for those that like to do both, pvp and pve and for those that wish to try pvp? Might not be that hard to implement since the code is already in use in one aspect of the game.

The greater reward would mean players have a reason to play this way.

The only downside I see is some hardcore farmers (including me) would find a way to abuse it.

Trub · Jul 15, 2008, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Some valid points in you argument and thanks for making them.

What if ANET implemented a new difficulty level that forced the player to only using PvP skills and offered a greater reward? Thus not only is Usran Blessing removed but it also forces the player to use the PvP version of sills, example they would use the pvp version of shadow form. Could it help with the transition for those that like to do both, pvp and pve and for those that wish to try pvp? Might not be that hard to implement since the code is already in use in one aspect of the game.

The greater reward would mean players have a reason to play this way.

The only downside I see is some hardcore farmers (including me) would find a way to abuse it.

That is the way it was before the title grind/PvE only skills...

Vazze · Jul 15, 2008, 04:04 PM // 16:04

In order to get:
- similarly balanced professions
- variety in builds
- equal chance for every prof in team builds in high end areas

a couple of things needs to be taken care of:
- certain things needs nerf (UB, ER, SR, etc),
- a few profession needs buffs (Me, R),
- and then about a third of the PvE skills are still insanely overpowered....

Conclusion: never gonna happen. Anet should introduce another difficulty level ("L33t Mode") to get rid of all the crap that "casual players" love (PvE skills, consumables, broken elites, god-mode...etc). But then again, that is not gonna happen either. So I keep waiting for Mortal Online: "The game features no level system, players will be measured purely on skill".

Bryant Again · Jul 15, 2008, 04:12 PM // 16:12

You need to move Paragons into the "needs nerf" section. They are currently one of if not the most powerful classes in PvE.

Snow Bunny · Jul 15, 2008, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I don't see how this is arguable, especially in a game that involves multiple players. If you want a flat game with a simple level required, play a single player game.

t w e l v e

Cheat codes (Ursan) aren't meant to be added to MMOs.

Oh, and don't say GW is a 'corpg', it's developed itself into an MMO.

R.Shayne · Jul 15, 2008, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trub

That is the way it was before the title grind/PvE only skills...

Worked for some in the pass, why wouldn't work now?

If they slightly increase the monster level above Hardmode combine with limitations on skills and no consumables it could provide a new challenge (limitations of the AI would prevent it from ever being really challenging) but removing pve skills would stop some of the complaining or redirect it in another area. Need a pvp input here, but doesn't NPC still use the pve version of skills? If they do use pve skills not only are your skills doing less damage but the AI will be using the PvE version of a skill that are usaully more powerful, well except for those using the PvE version of shadow form.

Increase the reward but don't over do the reward thing so player don't feel forced to do play this way but do provide enough of a reward that players want to do it this way. I would also make it so no titles are involved so player that feel they must get ever title in the game don't feel they have to play this way and thus don't start complaining and asking for buff to skills.

Normal Mode - end chest drops 1 item.

Hard Mode - end chest drops 2 items.

PvP Mode - end chest drops 3 items.

At the same time you are going have players complaining about pvp nerfed this skill to hard and then the standard answer becomes, "Go play Hard Mode if you don't like it."

They could also convert Hard Mode so that it only allows PvP skills and no consumables.

It does sound like old times.

Bryant Again · Jul 15, 2008, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Some valid points in you argument and thanks for making them.

What if ANET implemented a new difficulty level that forced the player to only using PvP skills and offered a greater reward? Thus not only is Usran Blessing removed but it also forces the player to use the PvP version of sills, example they would use the pvp version of shadow form. Could it help with the transition for those that like to do both, pvp and pve and for those that wish to try pvp? Might not be that hard to implement since the code is already in use in one aspect of the game.

The greater reward would mean players have a reason to play this way.

The only downside I see is some hardcore farmers (including me) would find a way to abuse it.

I wouldn't be in agreement with it because it does the similar thing that UB does: ignore the problems. Instead of doing balancing, you'd be creating a mode that just makes the "problems" restricted. They're still there, they're still present in PvE, and it would be no different than just not using them. Balance the skills and you won't have a need for a "PvP mode".

In regards to helping players transition to PvP from PvE, eliminating the skill separations would be a much better step.

DarkNecrid · Jul 15, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Exactly, balancing a game based only on elite or hardcore player (something some in the industry have stated should never be done) affects everyone. If hardcore / elite players can not stop and take a look around and realize there are more players then just themselves instead of whinning the game is to easy (opinion base) then ANET may listen to a vocal minority. Which resulted in PvE skills.

It seems you have no clue what the definition of balance is.

I'm not going to argue this point until you understand it. Balance does not favor casual players or elite players or even hardcore players. It favors everyone except those who wants to walk around doing 120000 dps to everything on the map with a single button.

Ursan Blessing isn't balanced.
Soul Reaping isn't really balanced.
Shadow Form isn't balanced.
Ether Renewal isn't balanced.
TNTF isn't balanced.
Critical Agility isn't balanced.
Spear of Fury isn't balanced.
Seed of Life isn't completely balanced.
etc.

Whether or not they make things easier for bad players is a moot point. That isn't the point of balancing. The point of balancing is making the most options viable and balanced and actually options, without hurting the game.

It doesn't matter if something hurts your experience or not, it matters if it's good for the game and balanced. All the thing and more I just listed aren't. The great part of balancing is that when you throw facts behind these things, and fully explain them in depth only idiots can argue them, (and they fail) because they are facts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NErgvGwXsC0

I'm sure this is fun too, but some reason I don't think Sagat throwing endless Tiger Shots is very balanced.

People can say that Assassins shouldn't be nerfed because they have 1 all they want, that isn't balance. It's not a good reason. Just like Ursans can say dont nerf ursan omg. You have to look at balance from an objective standpoint, and while I may not want my frontline characters to get nerfed ever, or Wounding Strike even (oh-so-much fun in PvP ;p), I am not dumb. I know Wounding Strike is imbalanced, and from an objective standpoint, I do want it nerfed.

Balance doesn't favor casuals, it doesn't favor the elite, or the hardcore, or even the average in-between gamer.

It favors the game.

Lopezus · Jul 15, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

many players talking about NM being for noobs and HM for "real" players ,more challange, current easy mode and balance

Just these posts makes me sure why PvE looks the way it looks now. Both devs and community want to eat the cake and have the cake and balance this impossible situation. It can't be done, first it has to be decided on what side of the fence you want to be and then balance pve around that choice. Devs and community both cherish the original GW idea of skill>time, yet as gw progressed it generally shifts towards wow style, where not skill matter but hard core dedication to the game, areas that doesn't promote skills per se but gimmick builds and profesion and build discrimination. That's problem with state of pve balance but of course Anet are doing the same confusing things: seeing that gimmicks builds run all over the place thay decide to solve it by... adding UB which is gimmick build but not invented by players but by devs and added to a grind.
So imo balanced situation in skill>time pve will be when skilled player (no matter what profession or campagins skill set) can "get the job done" in everything in pve: elite areas and HM inculded not being TOTALLY sub-par to gimmick builds.

Chthon · Jul 15, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31

A potpourri of walls of text and quote wars:

On Whom to Balance Around:

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

PvE balance should be balance based on your targeted customer, period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

PvE, like PvP, must be balanced around the very highest tier. You have to look at the top players and how they push the skillset and balance around that.

As I said before, PvE Balance has two major components: balancing the classes against each other and balance the players against the monsters.

The class-to-class balance has to be focused around the highest tier. You need to set the best ele build(s) and the best mesmer build(s) on equal footing. Otherwise you run into the situation where you can develop as a player and suddenly find that you've outgrown your character because you discover that they're just an inferior class at the level you now want to play the game at. Fixing this requires either buffs to the bad stuff or nerfs to the good stuff, depending upon where you choose to set the player-to-monster balance level.

The player-to-monster balance has to be focused on the target audience. Making a game that your target audience finds too easy or too frustrating is franchise suicide. I think, miraculously, a-net has managed to screw up on both ends of the spectrum at the same time. Ursan is the "I win now button" -- it's too easy. But much the rest of the content is too hard for the target audience. (Newsflash: Guru, we are not the target audience. The target audience has less skill/experience on average and far more people -- and money -- in it.) Fixing this requires (1) goodbye Ursan, and (2) lots of buffs.

I should add that centering the player-to-monster balance around Joe Schmo does not mean that you can't require Joe Schmo to grow. You don't have to make HM DoA so easy that he can do it on day one when when he logs in for the first time and creates a hamstorm warrior, a narutard assassin, and a N/E themed around a character from the movie Eragon. But you do have to make HM DoA easy enough that it at least intersects with the top of his learning curve. After several months playing heavily, unlocking skills, learning how to play better, and reaching the top of his learning curve, Joe Schmo should be able to complete HM DoA.

On How Ursan Affects Those Who Don't Like It and Don't Use It:

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

I asked for one example of how someone using Ursan Blessing affects someone else that does not like it and does not use it. Please give one or more examples.

It's got three major impacts:

1. It hurts your ability to PUG.
- 1a. It draws away skilled players who would otherwise be available to PUG in "real" groups. Since it's so much easier for them to find a group with Ursan, skilled players who can tolerate it have a strong incentive to do so. And that leaves you with less people available to party with.
- 1b. It prevents the development of skilled players who would otherwise be available to PUG in "real" groups in the future. Every inexperienced player whose learning curve stops when they learn Ursan is one more player who will never become good at the game, and never be available to PUG with you.
2. It devalues your e-peen. Some people assign a lot of value to having more gold or rarer items or higher titles than other people, and it greatly upsets them when other people are given a way to catch up. I personally think this reasoning is invalid, petty, and pathetic, but it's extremely common on the forums.
3. It will eventually reduce dev resources spent on the game. Dev resources are proportional to a-net's profits. And a-net's GW2 profits are going to be inversely proportional to the number of people turned off from GW1 by the existence of an "I win now button." Recently, a-net announced plans for one permanent GW1 dev. What happens if GW2 flops? Insofar as people's opinions on Ursan could contribute to a GW2 flop, that's an impact of Ursan.

I should also add one other comment. Since I reject the validity of impact #2, I think that "Don't Like It Don't Use It" is generally valid. In most cases, there is zero impact on your game from people who you aren't interacting with. Ursan had to go extremely far before it started causing impacts #1 and #3.

On Weapon Spells as Prot (on Par with Monk Prot):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Weapon spells are Ritualist's version of prot
...
with Weapon of Remedy on the bar, you've got condition popping on top of Reversal of Fortune. Find me a good Monk from Guild Wars who doesn't think that Reversal of Fortune is one of the best skills in the game, and I'll stop thinking Weapon of Remedy is a cornerstone Ritualist prot.

1. I think RoF is highly overrated except in certain parts of HM. It's good, but not good enough to make my bar in many situations.

2. WoR lacks the key feature that makes RoF good -- RoF prevents damage, then heals. In a flash. WoR merely heals. It's more akin to Glimmer of Light (fast, low-efficiency heal), which most monks agree sucks.

Quote:

Come on now guys... Weapon of Warding isn't a prot? Lol.

Weapon of Warding is Guardian crossed with Healing Breeze. It's decent. But it's not PS-grade damage mitigation for your 10e.

In general, the weapon spells lack the damage mitigation potential of the best of the prot spells. There's nothing like PS or SoA or Aegis.

I think one could say that spirits are a Rit's heavy prot. Shelter + Union used to be comparable to monk prot. And I think they need a buff to get them back up there.

On the Brokenness of Unlimited Energy on PvP Not Translating into PvE:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

The N/Rt's from Spiritway are the most obvious form of "abusing" SR but really, it's not overpowered. Untill you realize that what's overpowered in PvP isn't always overpowered in PvE, you're not gonna get anywhere. N/Rt's with infinite energy in PvP means there's no point in trying to pressure the healers, something that's bad for PvP cause it kills pressure builds. That changes the game in a negative way. N/Rt's with infinite energy in PvE are a different thing. In PvE, you have tons of opportunities to regain energy. Whether you're just jumping to the next mob or decide to make a temporary retreat, a primary monk will almost always have a full energy bar when you get to the next group. You don't get opportunities like that in PvP, and if your tries retreating you just might end up eating a crapload of snares.

I think this is an important point. A backline that never runs out of energy is a huge problem for PvP, since it takes pressure tactics off the table and creates a boring, un-fun stalemate situation. In PvE, not only do you not degenerate into this sort of game-breaking stalemate, but a backline that never runs out of energy is expected. If you get a healer in your group who pings "my energy is 0 of X" outside of over-aggro situations, you're probably thinking to yourself that they're terrible at the game.

Abnaxus · Jul 15, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trub

You sir, don't have a clue.
Avarre IS one of the original 'Old School' players you keep hearing about in these threads.
I tend to believe everythng he, Fenix, Rahja, and most from dR...law, SMS, TAM, GR, DVDF and Rare have to say.
We have played from the beginning, we have tried (and yes, failed a few times) using the skills available.
If ANY of those people say a skill is broken....you better believe it IS broken.
Experience over want.
It is not greed speaking in these folks posts...but dissapointment in a game that took a down turn for the lesser variable.
fenix has saved his items and ectos for YEARS.
Why?..Because he can..and it's his fun to collect things.
But you better believe he got them the hard way..not handed to him on a silver plate .
May I recommend sir, you click on any one of their names..and review past posts they have submitted on this forum..you may learn to think before you spout.
~Peace
Trubby.

You, sir, don't have a clue at all.

I bought Prophecies in May 2005, have played all classes, on every char I have at least a Protector title, 2 with 5 titles, my main has 29 titles, I think I've done most of the things the game offered, and much before ursan and other stuff.

Am I oldschool enough? I leave the answer to you.
Despite this, I don't feel myself entitled to teach other people how to play.
And I don't care about the so called elite guilds, neither I consider anyone an authority or keeper of the knowledge.
This is a videogame, not philosophy.

Collecting items ... it's fun, I bought several items I liked, some for 100k+xx ectos, now those items are worth 10k or less ... and with this? I still have them and I still like them, no one removed the items from my inventory.

And now, sir, let me say what I think of the "old times" and the "old school".
The old times of Prophecies were those in 2005, when my friend decided to delete his first character, a mesmer, because of the frustration in trying to find desperately a group just to complete the game, being rejected 100% of the times.
And those of ToPK, when every class not fitting in a pet/barrage team wasn't even considered.
And those of Deep, where no one was accepted outside the holy trinity.
Those excluded were players as everyone.
Old school players have abused for years on other casual players, just guilty to have chosen a class not fitting in the fotm teams, which where the ursan teams of their times.
To me, old school is CRAP, S*IT, JUNK.

Read what I posted before, maybe you can learn something before you spout.

Peace.

Snow Bunny · Jul 15, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

snip

You and your fellow defenders of the current game keep ignoring one thing when you state, "it's just a game".

Yes, it's just a game, but it's just a game upon which the revenues of ANet depend. If I think GW2 is going to be more of the same garbage that GW1 has become, rest assured, I will not buy it.

Quote:

Exactly, balancing a game based only on elite or hardcore player (something some in the industry have stated should never be done) affects everyone. If hardcore / elite players can not stop and take a look around and realize there are more players then just themselves instead of whinning the game is to easy (opinion base) then ANET may listen to a vocal minority.

You always balance around your top tier; it gives everyone else something to strive towards. You make that top tier lofty, but not impossible. You simply make it an endeavour to work for it.

This attitude of DLDU is really starting to annoy me. Ursan affects all of our playing styles, like it or not. Most players want to blow through something in the quickest time possible. Ursan allows you to do that in the most efficient way possible and with the least amount of skill required. All it requires is your time.

The only time Ursan won't affect you is if you don't participate socially in this game at all. If you don't trade with other players and if you don't play with other players, then no, Ursan doesn't affect you.

If you play with other people, which most people like to do seeing as humans are innately social creatures, it affects you. If you trade with other players, then yes Ursan affects you because it reduces the time required for High-End PvE clears thus increasing the influx of weapons and mats into the collective trading pool, devaluing them.

You have to balance your game towards the highest tier, else you run the risk of drastically reducing longevity of your game, which ANet has already achieved.

rawr

Spazzer · Jul 15, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

When they separated PvE from PvP, they absolved themselves from ever having to balance the PvE game again. Ever.

Unless things are very broken, I don't think they are going to touch it.

This is what players were really asking for when they asked for separation, after all.

"______ has been updated on your skillbar for PvP" will never mean a buff.

pumpkin pie · Jul 15, 2008, 06:28 PM // 18:28

I've just did my first DoA full run, with Ursan and consumables set and this and that, never done it before, the truths is, to all the people who whine about Ursan being bad here, why aren't you there inviting people into a non-ursan group?

I try to look for normal non-ursan group, that doesn't use consumables, there is none, none! so how are you going to persuade players to not use PvE skill, especially Ursan Blessing when there's no group exist that even want to bother with your request?

Yes, you are going to say the place is broken by Ursan, and you have long retired from the game, and all the excuses, but you aren't there to make it right, to show that playing without Ursan is more fun and better and more challenging, if you insist and you play with non-ursan, specifically inviting players to not play using Ursan, I am sure there will be players who are willing to go along. I for one would like to know how a non-ursan, 8 players group works in DoA.

Will you have mesmer and assassin in your non-ursan group? will you take along players who have no clue what so ever regarding that map? will you not rage quit when the mission fail on the first mob? will you patiently tell the "noob" how to do things right?

DarkNecrid · Jul 15, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

I'd wager most people here who say it is bad, play with friends or guildies, and don't PUG.

Bryant Again · Jul 15, 2008, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

I've just did my first DoA full run, with Ursan and consumables set and this and that, never done it before, the truths is, to all the people who whine about Ursan being bad here, why aren't you there inviting people into a non-ursan group?

I try to look for normal non-ursan group, that doesn't use consumables, there is none, none! so how are you going to persuade players to not use PvE skill, especially Ursan Blessing when there's no group exist that even want to bother with your request?

Yes, you are going to say the place is broken by Ursan, and you have long retired from the game, and all the excuses, but you aren't there to make it right, to show that playing without Ursan is more fun and better and more challenging, if you insist and you play with non-ursan, specifically inviting players to not play using Ursan, I am sure there will be players who are willing to go along. I for one would like to know how a non-ursan, 8 players group works in DoA.

Will you have mesmer and assassin in your non-ursan group? will you take along players who have no clue what so ever regarding that map? will you not rage quit when the mission fail on the first mob? will you patiently tell the "noob" how to do things right?

Nearly most if not all of the players you see in DoA aren't there looking for a challenge. They're there for the loot, and they want it done in the easiest way possible.

They don't care about the game, just the destination.

Snow Bunny · Jul 15, 2008, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

I've just did my first DoA full run, with Ursan and consumables set and this and that, never done it before, the truths is, to all the people who whine about Ursan being bad here, why aren't you there inviting people into a non-ursan group?

I try to look for normal non-ursan group, that doesn't use consumables, there is none, none! so how are you going to persuade players to not use PvE skill, especially Ursan Blessing when there's no group exist that even want to bother with your request?

Yes, you are going to say the place is broken by Ursan, and you have long retired from the game, and all the excuses, but you aren't there to make it right, to show that playing without Ursan is more fun and better and more challenging, if you insist and you play with non-ursan, specifically inviting players to not play using Ursan, I am sure there will be players who are willing to go along. I for one would like to know how a non-ursan, 8 players group works in DoA.

You just proved out point. Ursan enables mediocre players to beat anything. You think that's good for a game?

pumpkin pie · Jul 15, 2008, 06:46 PM // 18:46

I wouldn't call them shit players actually. They are players, like you and me, If a normal group going into DoA need more time, much more time I would guess than what I just use to do that run, I don't think many people can afford that luxury, TIME, you minus those players, then you minus all the "your so called noob" we wouldn't have much players left at all.